Down to the Devil - A Satanic Ethos | Forum

Topic location: Forum home » Main Forum » Philosophy
LeDeluge
LeDeluge Oct 29 '13
Thrown into the world at lightning speed. Force fed as a child. The spoon turning and turning. Nothing suffices. The road untaken becomes bushwhacking. You stare into the abyss but emerge naked, victorious. Stripped bare of all trappings, you are free to form your own code.


I'm just going to open the floor this morning. How did you form a satanic ethic or did you? I'll throw down mine as I wake.


Morality, Immorality, Amorality

Nomian, Antinomian, Fuck-all Nomian

Magian, Sinister.


When stripped bare of all trappings, what meaning did you ascribe? What is your code? What actions do you take and not take?


Do you form oath? Is it blood, kindred? Do you want to change the whole world? Are you the whole world? Both? Neither? Is all connected or does one paint on a canvas? Are you water flowing into a glass or simply flow itself?


Let's hear it all down to the bloody bones of contention, ascension, and alchemy.


P.S. Color outside the lines. You need not answer a single damn question here. How, How, How do you roll?

The Forum post is edited by LeDeluge Oct 29 '13
Interrogist
Interrogist Oct 29 '13
David Myattism aside, (fanboyism = gag) I 'nearly' agree with you Jack.

Where my opinion differs from your own lies in the amorality bit. I hear so-called Satanist make the amorality claim all the time, which hypocritically creates a dogma, indeed a Satanic morality of its own. This is double standard. Everyone else have a standard is bad, but ME having a standard is good, cause I'm calling myself a Satanist.

In fact, if someones tells me that they are amoral BECAUSE they are a Satanist, I view them as being what Myatt calls magian/mundane. I don't care if its the Christian cock you suck, or the ONA cock. Either way you swallow like a fag. ;)

The only genuine knowledge to be had pertaining to morality/amorality is that it is all arbitrary. You are not defined by having chosen morality or having chosen amorality. You are defined by the ability to recognize that what you possess was either attained via conscious choice, or subconscious indoctrination. ;)
Interrogist
Interrogist Oct 29 '13
Quote from jack_macleod 

This is suspiciously like the argument that atheists are really a kind of theist that worship the god science or the god reason or some other "god".  To be amoral is to be unfettered by moral concerns, just as to be an atheist is to be unfettered by theistic concerns.  That is not a chain, it is the absence of one.
No Jack, it is not. This is yet another attempt on your part to pin some "atheist tag" on me so you can produce and argue against some strawman. Again, I reject your strawman, and maintain the point that I originally made.

"The only genuine knowledge to be had pertaining to morality/amorality is that it is all arbitrary. You are not defined by having chosen morality or having chosen amorality. You are defined by the ability to recognize that what you possess was either attained via conscious choice, or subconscious indoctrination."

Quote from jack_macleod 

I would agree that morality is arbitrary.  Amorality is simply the absence of such arbitrary notions.  Perhaps you have an unusual definition of what goes into the "morality" box?
Yes, morality is arbitrary. However, I might go so far as to argue that amorality is nonexistent or even impossible. Amorality may claim to exist as a state of 'lacking morality' but that ideology fails itself, and is often expressed via some childish need to unnecessarily call itself Satanic.

At best, amorality refers to a state of consciousness in which one actively makes judgement calls as to import or reject those standards pertaining to arbitrary cultural values from their mindspace.


You have values Jack, you have standards, a code of honor, and goals both current and future. You have much in the line of morals, we all do. The difference in 'us' and 'them' lies in reformatting the our mindspace to suit our personal and societal evolution. Morality does not necessarily determine subjectivity, so much as never questioning ones subjectivity does. The parts of the computer do not go away when you install a new OS, they simply work according to a new protocol. 

Quote from jack_macleod 

If that is the case, how do I have other characteristics?  I do not believe that my precise meaning is dictated by this ability to recognize what aspects of my character are conscious or unconscious, nor do I believe that I am characterized solely by that ability, though I do possess it.
I cannot define your character Jack. You are a screen name on a website. I know little about you as a man/woman. In fact I make no attempt at defining 'you', so much as I explore the aspects of 'definition' in regard to morality and amorality. You are welcome to continue claiming that the "ability to decide" is not the core of this issue, however, in doing so you expose that Satanism can represent dogma and indoctrination with the best of Abrahamic religions.


If you were truly amoral Jack, you could easily discard Satanism and the ONA, just as I have. But you just cant, can you? ;)

SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Oct 29 '13
If there was any sort of 'Satanic Ethic' that formed naturally, it's the axiomatic expression: "YOU are not the boss of me."  I give providence to what I see as reaping the most benefit, even if I don't really want to do it.  It's still a choiceI make for myself.   I am my own Boss.
Nith
Nith Oct 29 '13

I am no expert on the vast tomes of writing on this topic but basically it needs to be broken down (at least in my mind) as to what is morality, amorality or immorality “other” than a standards/ titles held or distanced from?


Standards are based on values or the lack of values but even a negative number is still a number. The higher people value something the more rules they add to defend that item or idea and the more care they take with that item or idea.


An item/ idea can be clearly valued by it's use (True or False)?


A person can be clearly valued by natural standards or the standards they seek to uphold (True or False)?


In both the above questions I see a progression of item to idea to use and it's final value is in the value of that use (yes, I am listing a person as an item for now).


What is the difference between someone we don't know or care about and do we have to care just because they are human or even animal? This I see is where a clear double standard come in with care factor vs non-care factor.


1, I care for those close to me – leads to moral code basics.

2, I care little to nothing for those not close to me unless they have a use – leads to amoral code basics.

3, I have little issue using those I don't care about to my own ends – Leads to others seeing immoral code basics.


Without actually trying to fit to a moral code I see most by their actions seem to fall into the same three lines above. For me to state any different would be like placing porsche badges on a VW.

The Forum post is edited by Nith Oct 29 '13
Ghostly1
Ghostly1 Oct 29 '13
I would like to think myself an honorable man.


Through life I have made questionable choices, and was either rewarded, or punished for the choices I had made.  You see, we are our choices as much as we are also the choices we allow others to make for us.  Growing up we are mostly at the mercy of the choices our parents, and family around us make or don't make.  SIN's thread about circumcision is one such choice which could be made without our consent.  Some parents are forced to choose a gender for a child born with both sets of sexual organs and this can lead to irreversible psychological and physical problems which can plague this person the rest of their lives.   


So following that premise, that if we are our choices it should also hold true that practical experience and informed decisions are the most successful way to make the most beneficial choices which can have lasting impact.  The only way to know what you want, is to educate yourself about the choices you have to make.  What college did you attend, if you did attend a school?  Did you go to a trade school instead?  If you wish to play the stock market it would be more lucrative if you had a working knowledge of the securities market.  


But if you see yourself making personal decisions about your personality, those should be weighed just as carefully as the school and profession you chose to pursue.  


My journey as a self affirmed Satanist is still new, and developing.  my mindset has been forged by a life which some would consider trivial, even sad.  Most of my childhood I lived in homeless shelters, bouncing from school to school, and motel to motel.  Fourth grade took 4 different schools alone.  Being the lone kid in the class, the poor one teaches you the realities of life others might not learn about until they are well out of high school.  it made me a realist.  Pragmatic, and conservative.  I do not make a move in a hasty manner, without first exhausting all avenues of information pertaining to something I am faced with.  It took a year of careful research and test driving different models of car before I settled on one I knew which would last, and hold its value.  I made an investment in reliability, as peace of mind is a priceless commodity.  if it won't start in a blizzard, it is worthless to me.  This means despite my humble roots, I buy the best I can afford because in the end I won't be left stranded, or regretting that choice.  Slow and steady wins the race.


Religion was always something I did because it was expected of me.  Not because I felt a deep down connection to anything I read in a book or learned in a class setting.  You cannot attain faith when you are led by the nose to the alter.  All I had inside me was questions, and the answers were always repeated back with consistency that I needed to have faith.  Faith to me, is a hollow venture.  


So it would be obvious with my past history of never taking half measures that reading about Satanism first, and expanding my knowledge....and more importantly seeing and reading answers which felt real, and tangible unlike the hollow words I have been fed my entire life brought a sense of closure that I was moving in the right direction.  


It is also true, that despite my less then ideal upbringing I always felt different, more mature than my peers.  I was strong willed, aggressive and protective of the few things I actually had, the most valuable was my family.  For them I would risk anything because they were the only ones there for me at my lowest moments.  The times when I felt the weakest and that means I would not be here if it weren't for them staying by my side.  This is true I think for many people.  But it makes up part of who I am at my roots.


My sense of humor is best described as a morbid sarcasm.  Most people fail to realize when I am joking or when I am being serious which leads to much confusion most of the time.  Unfortunate, but I refuse to act any other way to placate the fears and uncertainty of anyone to include those dearest to me.  My mother asked me once why I was the way I am.  My answer was upsetting to hear but it was the truth and I will not lie.


"I'm a prick."


An Honorable prick.  I treat others the way I would like to be treated even if I do not like them.  Courtesy costs nothing and can make interaction less stressful and taxing.  I am free to plot something later on without feeling the need to openly assault anyone which can lead to incarceration.  This is also a trait taught and reiterated in the military, as I am a tactically minded person who likes to figure things out for himself.  I have the mind and imagination of an engineer, without the degree to back it up.


Sinister and amoral have always been part of my DNA.  Only because of the indoctrination of knowing right and wrong have I not ended up in prison or dead.  You can say my parents did their job in that regard.  But I am free to make my choices now, knowing the consequence of those actions and taking responsibility for them is my burden.  The Left Hand path has appeal and a quiet integrity which I find appealing.  Everyday I learn who I am, and how to make the most of what I am learning so that I may grow as a Satanist, and student of the human condition.  Strike me on the cheek, and I will crush your skull.  Every action should have an equal or opposite reaction.  


I am a consequence of the actions others take.  I am a force of nature.  You do not have to see me to know I am there.  My actions will always be made in secret and without feeling the need to brag or share my deeds with others.  That is something the weak of will do to make themselves a celebrity.  I have been a shadow my entire life, and that suits me just fine.



SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Oct 29 '13
Quote from jack_macleod
Quote from SIN_JONES If there was any sort of 'Satanic Ethic' that formed naturally, it's the axiomatic expression: "YOU are not the boss of me."

"We would rather die than submit to anyone or anything, and this pride is the pride of Satan, that symbol of our defiance and that sign of our life-enhancing energy."

It has a nicer ring to it than your version. 

K.I.S.S.
Interrogist
Interrogist Oct 29 '13

Quote from jack_macleod

I have no reason to discard Satanism (or the ONA, take your pick).  That, having no reason to discard it, I choose not to discard it says nothing about my morality or lack thereof.  You simply continue to betray the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about when you try to appear clever like this.
You do not maintain a code simply because you have no reason to discard it. You maintain a code due to having some motivating reason to keep it. If you have reason to, you maintain said code, and base your action upon that code, that code is in fact a form morality. Calling it Satan or ONA does not excuse you from this fact.
Quote from jack_macleod

None of which are moral considerations.  “Morality” in the normative sense refers to a code of conduct that applies to all who can understand it and can govern their behavior by it. It is a commonly accepted behavioral standard.
You mean like everyone who sells themselves to ONA philosophy and conducts themselves according to ONA terms, but also claims to be immune to the very actions the commit in doing so?
Quote from jack_macleod

People who hold to morality hold that any rational person would subscribe to the behavior under plausible conditions and further that a moral prohibition should never be violated.
Right, so its bad when people do this, unless you are ONA, and then its ok?
Quote from jack_macleod

Nietzsche referred to this as "slave morality."
LOL Imagine that, ;)
Quote from jack_macleod

Amorality simply does not involve good and evil or right and wrong in the decision making process.  It is the absence of moral considerations, as I specified.  There are no lines I would not cross in the pursuit of my goals.  This does not mean I engage in random behavior.
Yeah, I call bullshit man. If this is the case, why use ONA or Satanism? Why not just be Jack? You claim to lack moral considerations, but only in favor of another form of fanboyism.
Quote from jack_macleod

I do not believe that precise meaning [of any given person] is dictated by this ability to recognize what aspects of [their] character are conscious or unconscious, nor do I believe that [people are] characterized solely by that ability, [even if they do] do possess it."
Perhaps not solely, however, the ability to make such a judgement call would define any following questions pertaining to a given individual, and the necessity to ask, or not. The inability, would imply indoctrination to local dogma, and little else.
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Oct 29 '13
Quote from jack_macleod
Quote from SIN_JONES K.I.S.S.
Sure, if low brow is your aim. 

If the shoe fits.  Target reached.
Interrogist
Interrogist Oct 29 '13

Quote from jack_macleod

Quote from Interrogist Right, so its bad when people do this, unless you are ONA, and then its ok?
ONA doesn't do the thing described.
What a massive cop out. What does ONA DO then?
Interrogist
Interrogist Oct 29 '13

Quote from jack_macleod

Using a map is a form of "fanboyism" to you?  Don't take a road trip with this man!
So you being an ONA fanboy is just "the use of a map" but everyone using any other map is "mundane"?


Hatepeach
Hatepeach Oct 30 '13

Quote from Interrogist You do not maintain a code simply because you have no reason to discard it. You maintain a code due to having some motivating reason to keep it. If you have reason to, you maintain said code, and base your action upon that code, that code is in fact a form morality. Calling it Satan or ONA does not excuse you from this fact.

Ummm...no sir.  Moral codes are socially negotiated norms for defining not merely right and wrong but good and evil.  Two important considerations here: morals are socially negotiated and morals concern proscription of certain acts and dispositions as "evil."  One may adhere to any number of personal "codes" that are not moral in their scope or foundation.  A moral proposition would be one such as "it's never permissible to obtain non-consensual sex from a child," or "parents who abandon their children are monsters."  A code of behavior based solely on reason, patriotism, or kinship ties would be amoral.  "I'll do it if the price is right" and "I'll do it because I love her" are also amoral standards of behavior.

The Forum post is edited by Hatepeach Oct 30 '13
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Dec 8 '13

What you're describing here is Normative (m)orality as a descriptor.  An individual person can form their own (M)orals by way of subjective reasoning.   The Morality of a Serial Killer for example, would differ than the normative sense of societal morality.  The killer has only been bound to the normative, if he agrees to the social contract.  If removes himself from the societal ethic of "Killing is Evil and wrong behavior", then in spite of being considered immoral by societal at large, when he kills this is amoral behavior.  He may even have conditions: I kill Women but I'd never harm a child.

 

If a person sets their own code and it governs their behavior, it qualifies as a moral Ethic.    To qualify as the normative, the person would also have to qualify as a rational person.  If say the Killer were subjected to psychological analysis and neurologic tests and found to be lacking reasonable rationale, he would not be judged by a moral standard (at least in theory), even if people become emotionally connected to his deed, and judge him to be an immoral person.

 

I think what Darryl is trying to flesh out here, is if whether or not identifying as a 'Satanist' is enough to make one absent of personal Morals.  If a Satanist rejects harming children, should it be automatically assumed that they've been dogmatized into accepting the Normative form of morality; or could it be that harming children has developed into a personal Morality because of personal reasons?

 

Even if that reason is rooted in Empathy, i.e. it just feels wrong, this isn't the same thing as adhering to the Normative sense because you've been told it's wrong.

 

I think many would agree that accepting a universal code makes little sense if it doesn't personally affect you.   A code handed down from the mountain is rarely a consideration in situations where subjective reasoning is at work.   It doesn't matter if a code is universally accepted, it's whether or not an individual considers it part of their own Moral code.

 

Part of moral schema is social Etiquette.  Take for example Adultery.  

 

Religious code:  Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbor's Wife

 

Social code: In a court of Law, Adultery carries consequence.  In my community, it may cause strife.

 

Personal code:  I don't fear consequence from God nor do I care about the judgments of my community, therefore I am inclined to not care if the person is married or not.  It does not affect me.  I will pursue this interest.

 

I've run across many a Satanist that would consider cheating a personal betrayal thus it governs their behavior and they don't cheat.  Not because it's universally accepted, nor socially dictated but because they've reasoned it to become part of their personal Moral code.   

 

The normative sense has become such a dirty word as of late, Moral has been replaced with Honor but it's essentially the same thing.  It governs their behavior.

 

 

 

 

Issue Reporting

Report any issues to satanhimself@circleofdescent.com. He may, or may not, get back to you in a timely manner.