Fear of Death | Forum

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SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Dec 20 '13
Quote from Cygni I came here to be able to talk with those who already understand magick

Many do, isn't it magical when you hit a roadblock that you can't seem to find a way through it?  By all means, take the easy road.  It's been trodden by other casualties.
Cygni
Cygni Dec 20 '13
The easy road being leaving the site? I'm sure it won't be long. I have little hope for genuinely wyrd conversation here.
MercuryMan
MercuryMan Dec 20 '13
Just thought i'd throw my 2 cents into the fray, where my interest has been peaked. Mainly the issue of death being equated non existence.....


While death can be considered the termination of biological functions and consciousness within an organism, to say the base components which encompasses its makeup can become "non existent" is a fallacy. With the onset of exponential decay upon death, the chemical compounds in which the body is composed of begin to break down into smaller sub-units. These molecules are even further broken down into subatomic particles through Half-life decay, until its most base form is reached. Upon attaining this primal state, atoms repeat their cycles by contributing to new configurations through attraction or repulsion.


The 1st law of Thermodynamics states that energy/matter cannot be created nor destroyed, only transformed. If correct, not only does this entail unlimited durability for base properties, but that the quantity of matter in our universe is fixed in number. Since there's no new influx of energy into our reality, nature necessitates reuse of its substances upon destruction. Therefore true "non existence" is an impossibility.


With death, unconsciousness is most probable, and the molecular makeup of what I call "me" will most assuredly be dispersed. But you can only snap a twig in half so many times, before you reach the point where it becomes unbreakable.....The subatomic particles that make up our container we call the universe are indestructible, and thus immortal.....


Perhaps the various spiritual paths of old were describing this phenomena when they spoke of immortality and reincarnation?      





Cygni
Cygni Dec 20 '13
Time is only perceived as linear. What does it mean for reincarnation when we take time out of the equation? Since we can move beyond time it is plausible that we can also move beyond death.

If consciousness can move beyond time AND the physical body in dreams, astral work, psychedelic practices, meditation, near death and other out of body experiences then is it not worth entertaining that consciousness could move beyond the body when it ceases to animate?

Perhaps a scenario for Maxwell's Demon... the gate is only open long enough for the fastest to move through....
MercuryMan
MercuryMan Dec 20 '13
Quote from Cygni Time is only perceived as linear. What does it mean for reincarnation when we take time out of the equation?

Maybe you perceive time as linear, but this is not always the case. In fact, I discern time as circular. Cyclic periods of the expansion and retraction of space is ever-lasting , with latent periods of dormancy in between. I'd also argue that time itself is merely a perception. A way of charting reality rather than actually being a property of it. Eternity isn't something external from the universe. We are already "in" eternity.......


Quote from Cygni If consciousness can move beyond time AND the physical body in dreams, astral work, psychedelic practices, meditation, near death and other out of body experiences then is it not worth entertaining that consciousness could move beyond the body when it ceases to animate?

Possible but not probable. Yet can people who are medically brain dead experience these phenomena? And when the psyche ceases activity in within the encephalon , does dispersion of its compounds occur? Furthermore, can it exit the body whole? Currently it can't be proven, but that doesn't make it false either. People who experience Deja Vu can't prove it, and yet many of us have experienced it.
Quote from Cygni Perhaps a scenario for Maxwell's Demon... the gate is only open long enough for the fastest to move through....

Are you comparing Maxwell's Demon to the occult idea that through amplification of will, by various mental practices, one can protest the laws of nature upon death to "pass over" with the psyche intact? Or as you say move through the gate? This is the intent of Enlightenment and yoga within many eastern practices. Gnosticism and Luciferianism owes their birth to these concepts as well. Accept they replace the "Will" with  "knowledge". They are simply attempting to express the same idea.....Mastery over oneself.

The Forum post is edited by MercuryMan Dec 20 '13
Cygni
Cygni Dec 20 '13

Quote from MercuryMan Maybe you perceive time as linear, but this is not always the case. In fact, I discern time as circular. Cyclic periods of the expansion and retraction of space is ever-lasting , with latent periods of dormancy in between. I'd also argue that time itself is merely a perception. A way of charting reality rather than actually being a property of it. Eternity isn't something external from the universe. We are already "in" eternity.......

We agree - that was quite my point - that time is NOT linear, it is only perceived that way (by the masses). I almost said in that comment "we are already dead".
Quote from MercuryMan Furthermore, can it exit the body whole?

I can not prove it but I have left my body entirely and moved about without it (not astral projection or near death but unintentional). I was able to see my body, see my friends coaxing me to breathe (my mouth was dropped in awe and I had lost my breath in wonder) and I giggled in amazement at how silly my perception had been when still 'trapped' in my body. I could go through one door and come out another, space being just as maliable as time.
Quote from MercuryMan Are you comparing Maxwell's Demon to the occult idea that through amplification of will, by various mental practices, one can protest the laws of nature upon death to "pass over" with the psyche intact? Or as you say move through the gate?

Indeed, I am.
XiaoGui17
XiaoGui17 Dec 20 '13
Quote from Cygni I choose not to avoid content by picking apart the terrible grammar

I wasn't nitpicking.  I honestly can't tell what was being asked.  My best guess is that you're asking for me to retract the statement that fire requires fuel because you can make fire by rubbing two sticks together.  But sticks are a form of fuel, so that interpretation doesn't make sense.

Quote from Cygni I think I was mistaken when I joined this forum because it seems that no one here believes in or practices magick and all people ever do is ask me to prove it

I believe in magic, I just don't believe in you, capisce?  If you told me over the internet you were capable of running a 4 minute mile, I'd be skeptical of that claim, too, though I know it's technically possible.  If any schmuck off the street could do incredible things while dicking around with a spellbook on a casual weekend, everyone would be doing it.
NOS4A2
NOS4A2 Dec 20 '13
I certainly couldn't fully enjoy life if I lived in constant fear of death; many things I have done -- and which left me feeling quite fulfilled  -- were not undertakings that those who fear death would find themselves taking on.

I don't understand people who fear death, everyone has to die so you might as well come to terms with that and move on. And what's so bad about death anyway? Does anyone remember before they were existed and how much it sucked? Why would death be any different. To paraphrase Jim Jefries: I'm not scared of death, I won't even know I am dead. You wanna know why? Because I'll be fucking dead!
MercuryMan
MercuryMan Dec 21 '13
.......
MasterFaster
MasterFaster Dec 21 '13
I used to think I wouldn't fear death, but fear is not about biting nails. I'm not scared of lions, for example. Well, I don't sit around worrying about them all day and when I see them in zoos I melt in their magnificence. Then again, if one was right up close and roaring all up in my grill with nothing standing between us, I would not embrace it. I'd run or fight so long as shock didn't grip me.


I'll say it again but louder.


ALL FEAR, IS THE BRAIN'S WAY OF TELLING YOU THAT YOUR SURVIVAL COULD SOON BE COMPROMISED.


Do none of you have any fears at all? Fear is there*to protect your survival... SO YOU DON'T DIE!! If you fear something, it is that for some reason, your mind believes it is threatening your survival. Which is also regardless of whether or not you drop a brown creek or shout "YEEHAW!" and sprint towards the threat with a knife between your teeth.


R.


*EDIT* Embarrassing typo: their/there

The Forum post is edited by MasterFaster Dec 21 '13
Cygni
Cygni Dec 21 '13
I have fears, undoubtedly more than I realize. But I embrace those fears and face them, seek them out and revel in the altered states that they manifest. Sometimes they hurt, often in the moment I wonder why I've put myself in such a situation, but when I come out of these experiences I am different, stronger... I understand more and fear less. With each experience my confidence grows and the worries of the mundane world grow smaller and smaller. The further I push myself the less human and more god-like I feel - chasing after destiny instead of letting life happen. This is the essence, I feel, of Zeena's quote; not that fear is unnecessary, quite the opposite - fear is profoundly necessary to our conscious evolution in the very act and knowledge of our ability to  surpass it. If we can transcend our fear of death then we can freely face fear itself.
The Forum post is edited by Cygni Dec 21 '13
MasterFaster
MasterFaster Dec 22 '13
That all sounds very pretty and you'd be King Goth for writing that on one of the cubicle doors in the school shit-box. However, if you overcome the fear of death, you wouldn't have any fear left. Fear is in all cases–rational or irrational–related to death, or more appropriately; the observable brink of survival and demise.


Imagine being immortal, you now don't have to fear death or situations that might cause death. You would be free from fear. Then again, I think even an immortal with a human mind would fear being made mortal and the very pool of sanctuary in which their lack of fear rests being snatched from betwixt their withered fingers. So yeah, even the immortal would fear the dissolve of what they rely on for survival.

Cygni
Cygni Dec 22 '13
Even if one does not consciously fear death the body reacts to threats (as has been previously commented in this thread). One does not have to fear 'non-being' or the state of being beyond the body to experience physical pain. For me pain is more fear inducing than death. I look forward to what lies beyond but extreme pain can still inspire fear. You could argue that if one were immortal the body wouldn't require pain to warn of powerful threats... but that is besides the point. So I'm a masochist of sorts, seeking out extreme experiences, conquering the fear of pain, growing myself until the day that I can move past the physical body. It's not about poetry or pretty - it's something I learned growing up in hardship.. that the most vivid and beautiful experiences, for me, are the darkest ones.
The Forum post is edited by Cygni Dec 22 '13
MasterFaster
MasterFaster Dec 23 '13
Pain is the result of a signal used to communicate from one of our sensory nerves to the brain to be compiled with other data then reacted on. We experience pain because something might me compromising our survival. Assuming immortals wouldn't require the fear of not keeping their conscious mind (just as human mortals don't require many of our bodily functions and organs that're yet to be bred out) then maybe pain would be defunct too.

However the quality of their eternal survival depends on the shape of their body. Now there is no such things as immortality, but perhaps limbs don't grow back... sure they'd survive because they can't physically lose consciousness, but the quality of their survival would be compromised. So pain could still be necessary, even if you're a vampire. Imagine getting your dick burnt off in a freak baking accident and living eternity without sex. No more vampire orgies. Not that they'd need to reproduce; but immortality is a fallacy anyway, it's just an example.
Basically, as far as you're concerned you like the experiences when you are frightened and in pain. More than fair enough and hardly that strange or freaky to get a kick from the chemicals it releases. As far as this discussion is concerned though, you fall quite hard on you own statement. Enjoying fear and pain–which are directly triggered as an evolutionary function to secure you survival (not dying)–is totally different to not experiencing them.

Cygni
Cygni Dec 23 '13
I didn't say I enjoy pain.. I said that I enjoy the experience of surpassing pain, of facing things that cause fear and that death is not one of those things. You missed the point entirely so I'll restate - that overcoming fear of death does not necessitate that one overcome fear completely. Fear is not synonymous with survival. Take for instance someone in a great deal of agony who begs for death... one can welcome death and still experience fear. We could also look at suicide, those who fear life more than death.
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Dec 24 '13
What about activity that puts your life at risk?  


Sky-diving, love it.  The first jump was surreal.  It was tandem, I had to sign all this paperwork that would basically put the risk into perspective.  Acceptance of said risk.    You have to watch this video that explains what to do in the event the chute is balled up and ropes tangled.  The chances of this happening were described as slim.  20,000 feet over the Nevada Desert, that's exactly what happened.  The instructor was talking the whole time he's trying to untangle the ropes.  I'm looking up watching him work it.  


I figured he was trying to make sure I didn't panic but I tend to think he was just talking himself through it.  He kept saying:  "Whatever you do, don't grab the ropes!"  It wasn't as loud as it had been when we were free-falling.  The chute offered some wind resistance.  The faster we fell, the more his voice became shaky.  I start cracking jokes, I mean... If the thing isn't open we are hitting the ground and hard.  Dead?  The probability was increasing as the seconds passed quickly.   I didn't experience fear, it was more or less the reality: This shit is really happening.   


At the last possible moment the chute plumed open and then it was silent.  The ground was come up ...  A soft landing.   After it was over, the guy talked about a million jumps but each one terrifying and exhilarating.  


For me, stepping off the wing of that plane into a summersalt wasn't surpassing my fears, it was living with a high possibility of death.


The two Marines that jumped before I did were on the ground, their suits full of puke.  They were poking fun at me on the plane because I was quietly looking out the window at the landscape below.  They figured I was trying to mentally prepare myself, I was just enjoying the scenery.  It was my first trip to Vegas.  It was my first jump out of a plane but it wasn't my first jump.  Cliff & bridge diving, parasailing, bungee-jumping, etc. All that stuff was just my good time.  


I've jumped quite a few times out of an airplane, when my son was small I was up against my ex telling me the risk was too great.  What if I died?  My son would be left without a Mother.   Hell, my biggest fear was leaving that guy to raise my kid.  I jumped a few more times after that then called it quits for a while.  Just for a while...

MasterFaster
MasterFaster Dec 25 '13
Quote from SIN_JONES
I felt no compulsion to bore the living shit out of everyone here with personal anecdotes.

 


Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Dec 26 '13
Ha.  Smartass.
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