Economical Minimalism | Forum

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Interrogist
Interrogist Nov 26 '13
Without rehashing the whole (now retired) ShoutBox, Id like to dedicate this thread to discussing the concept of economical minimalism. Ali and I had a short dialog pertaining to the pros and cons of possessions.

---

Darryl: I prefer to own less stuff, less stuff, less debt, less subjectivity to the system.

Ali: I bought a house, I own it, I can resell the house for a profit.

---

I say that many who bitch about the system, are in many cases, suffering from unnecessary debt-subjectivity, meaning that their strife is self induced rather that system induced.

What say you?
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Nov 26 '13

Minimalism works, provided you are not indebted to a Rental Agency.  That's still debt.

 

I am sole provider,  there's no person to fall back on or mooch off of.  Either I pay rent and throw my money at a property owner or I become the property owner.

 

How do you own less stuff than I do?

Interrogist
Interrogist Nov 26 '13
I see what you mean, however, when I rent, it is by choice, and eveyone understands that I will never, nor do I intend to, own the place.

I do the pre-paid thing with my phone, and at any time I can throw it away and buy a new one, with a new number, or not pay for or buy one at all.

My point is that you may desire to own a home and a fancy phone plan, or multiple vehicles, or whatever, the thing is, you are owned by the stipulations of the plans, and like it or not the government can take your home and property at any time. Just get sick, and watch your life long work go down the drain. But hey, Doctors need even more money right?

If you invest your life into mortgage and contracts and then decide to walk away, you will be hit with cancellation fees, fines, breach of contract and here comes the bank to take everything. But banks need even more money right?

Me?

I can throw my phone and wallet in the fire and take off to somewhere new. Ive done it more times than I can count. I can just say fuck it and start over with no debts or contracts holding me back. Now I will never own a home, but I don't plan to see 65 either.

Its not an issue of right or wrong, no such duality here. It just depends on what you value, and what you really want out of life.

*Edit

And to specify: I am not saying that I never use money, or that I have escaped the economic system. I am simply saying that I avoid subjectivity to that system as much as possible.

Those I see bitching about prices and taxes tend to be those who spend money they don't have, buying things they don't really need to survive.

#subjectivityisachoice
The Forum post is edited by Interrogist Nov 26 '13
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Nov 26 '13
Wait, so buying vs. renting is not a choice?


Perhaps you choose to pay the Property Owner and I choose to pay the bank but at the end, I have a house and you have a choice to move to the next place at the end of the lease.  I'm not trapped in this mortgage and I can sell at any time, which is also a choice.


I don't pay for my cellphone plan, it's co-oped to me by an associate.  So, I may be ahead of the game on that one ;)


Sure, the government can take my property. Thing is, all land is on lease in the U.S. you will never own it in your life time, or the next.  The government can also decide to seize control of the property where an apartment development sits, and you still have to move.  Either way, I don't see how you are a minimalist and I have all this baggage.


You can say you have no debt but if you've signed an apartment lease that's debt.  You can certainly say fuck it, break the lease and skip town.  That debt is tied to your SS#, unless of course you're living with a relative/friend and don't have a lease.


The right/wrong dichotomy is moot.  I'm trying to figure out how your mode of living is minimal where mine is not.    Every purchase you make includes a Sales Tax.  Depending on the services you pay for, there's also Franchise Tax, and other taxes on the bottom line.


I think people are bitching about taxes because of the way we are taxed, shit is robbery.


1.  Earn an income - you pay income tax.  

Federal

State


2.  Make a purchase - you pay sales tax.

State


3.  Own property - you pay property tax.

State


Added with the Health Care Act...

Federal - Tax


In terms of minimalism, I have my Home Mortgage and my utilities.  That's pretty minimal.


What I do not have:

1.  Car Note

2.  Loans (aside the Mortgage)

3.  Credit Cards


I don't over extend myself to a point where I borrow to make purchases. I earn capital (on and off radar), I support myself and my man-child.


I still think taxes suck and I'll bitch about it because it sucks.  Especially when that tax money is misappropriated, misused and pulls dead weight.



The Forum post is edited by SIN_JONES Nov 26 '13
Interrogist
Interrogist Nov 26 '13

Quote from SIN_JONES

Wait, so buying vs. renting is not a choice?
No Ali, both are choices. I simply feel like one leads to more subjectivity or vulnerability than the other.
Quote from SIN_JONES


I'm not trapped in this mortgage and I can sell at any time, which is also a choice.

You may not be trapped, but you have something to lose where as I do not. You have something for the system to target that I do not. You say that you could sell at any time, but lets say that you lose the house before you were ready to sell it. You lost all of that investment.
Quote from SIN_JONES


I don't pay for my cellphone plan, it's co-oped to me by an associate.  So, I may be ahead of the game on that one ;)

You sly and hairless devil you ;)
Quote from SIN_JONES


The government can also decide to seize control of the property where an apartment development sits, and you still have to move.  Either way, I don't see how you are a minimalist and I have all this baggage.

So you honestly believe that if you had to start over, you could easily walk away from all that you own now. You could start fresh and regain all that you now possess easily? I see any and all contracts as baggage. Sure, I have some, but I have zero more than I absolutely need.

Roof? Check
Bed? Check
Laptop? Check
Transportation? Check
Running money? Check

Everything else? Optional and/or situational
Quote from SIN_JONES


You can say you have no debt but if you've signed an apartment lease that's debt.  You can certainly say fuck it, break the lease and skip town.  That debt is tied to your SS#, unless of course you're living with a relative/friend and don't have a lease.

As a standard I tend to keep someone around for signing stuff lol, and I have for years. most of the debt tied to my SS# is medical, and if the government seriously thinks I will ever pay $5000 for a three hour wait and a fucking pain pill... well they just may be waiting a while.
Quote from SIN_JONES


I'm trying to figure out how your mode of living is minimal where mine is not.    Every purchase you make includes a Sales Tax.  Depending on the services you pay for, there's also Franchise Tax, and other taxes on the bottom line.

Well I never intended for this to become a me vs you kind of thing Ali. I sought a discussion pertaining to Levels Of, not a Win Lose. Of course I pay Sales tax, but only as a necessity or if I really want something. I do not overly apply myself so as to find it a major issue. I see other who bitch about it, constantly buying things they don't even need, then complain about how much it cost. I see these individuals as morons. Everything that I absolutely need is easily achieved with little effort. People working very hard, tend to be working for things they could do without.
Quote from SIN_JONES


I think people are bitching about taxes because of the way we are taxed, shit is robbery.


1.  Earn an income - you pay income tax.  

Federal

State


2.  Make a purchase - you pay sales tax.

State


3.  Own property - you pay property tax.

State


Added with the Health Care Act...

Federal - Tax

LOL have fun with that.
Quote from SIN_JONES


In terms of minimalism, I have my Home Mortgage and my utilities.  That's pretty minimal.

In terms of minimalism I have rent (easily abandoned)(not a target) and utilities. More minimal.
Quote from SIN_JONES

I still think taxes suck and I'll bitch about it because it sucks.  Especially when that tax money is misappropriated, misused and pulls dead weight.

Every time you pay/buy something unnecessary to your existence you are supporting the very system you are bitching about. Rather that bitching about how the government missuses your money, you might use it as you see fit instead. You might have much less need of it that way as well.
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Nov 26 '13

Here's the way I look at it.

 

I could easily walk away from this house today.  Whether I'm throwing money at rent or a mortgage makes no difference. 

 

I've started over many times, I've lived in 4 different states and abandoning shit and getting new shit is down to a science.  I have what I need, I chose this anchor for my child to have stability.   

 

Generally speaking, people do have a tendency to over-extend themselves and bury themselves in debt.  I'm not one of those people.  Still, you can say you choose to pay sales tax but you pay it none the less.  You need something, want something you are paying into the economy and equally your demands drive it.

 

You buy food right?  You are driving the economy and no matter how you shake it, you're not living as minimal as you believe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interrogist
Interrogist Nov 26 '13
Dude, you keep arguing something I didn't say. Sure, I interact with the system when I need to, I just don't interact with the system UNLESS I need to.
LeDeluge
LeDeluge Nov 26 '13
Folks be sounding like the Occupy Oakland hippies of late. The system is a game of cards. You keep your hand close, dealings to a minimum, and never personalize any of it. Unless you're the fucking unabomber living in the woods, you take what you need and disregard the rest.


"In this word but not of it"

 

I am more of an aesthetic minimalist. It has no philosophical backstory to it, I just don't like clutter.


Specific Questions?

House - Lease. Why? I'm not settling down in this town.

Transport - Car, I don't use it often.

Contracts - Lease, Utilities, Internet, Phone (Yeah, it is a fucking iPhone) + more. 


What metrics are we going by here? There is a difference between dealing with something and being beholden to it. I will bitch about taxes as I enjoy it + they don't spend/minimize it for shit. 


Ask away. I won't win this one if Grizzly Adams is the gold standard. There is plenty more nomian shit to roast here.

The Forum post is edited by LeDeluge Nov 26 '13
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Nov 27 '13

I blame the Matrix, LD.

 

FemaleSatan
FemaleSatan Nov 27 '13

Quote from Interrogist I say that many who bitch about the system, are in many cases, suffering from unnecessary debt-subjectivity, meaning that their strife is self induced rather that system induced. What say you?


I think it depends on the individual, their circumstances and what their goals are in life. Unless you have no place to live or own something outright, you're doing the same thing, exchanging dollars for a place to lay your head.

Now, I do think that debt is subjectivity to the state. My perspective can be summed up with Proverbs 22:7: "The rich ruleth over the poor and the borrower servant to the lender."

Now, I personally do practice my own form of economic minimalism. I buy as little new as I can, grow and can my own vegetables as possible (I live in an apartment), I own my own car but I take the bus and/or walk as much as possible (and it's a beautiful, shitty Honda Accord '92) I don't have any credit card or other debt, my total belongings boil down to a bug out bag and a laptop.

But... this is a personal lifestyle choice and one I don't think someone else has to engage in. I am doing this for my own reasons at this time.

I see people saying of the system but not part of it and I don't think that's true, not for any of us. The people who have nothing or truly little to do with the system don't voluntarily leave it, they get spit out by it.

If you are engaging in the system in any form, you're part of it. Fighting that whole *waves hand* thing is a worthy goal (cultural memes, blah, blah, blah I am really fucked tired this morning), but not one that is going to be completed in a mere lifetime.
The Forum post is edited by FemaleSatan Nov 27 '13
LeDeluge
LeDeluge Nov 27 '13
Personally, I find it very easy to take what I want from "the system" and disregard the rest. People view "it" as some big behemoth on all levels. It just isn't that simple. I view it as a psychological construct (not unlike The Matrix for that matter). You can view "it" as a theater of the absurd or something that kicks your ass when you play the wrong card. I choose the former.


All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
Albert Camus

The Forum post is edited by LeDeluge Nov 27 '13
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Nov 27 '13

The idea borders on Asceticism, such as living in a fantasy world that exists in your head, making sacrifice for the principal of the thing and showing disdain for this life.  Seeing a broken world that needs fixing.

 

Some Ascetic practices can be beneficial if used for the proper reasons with constructing an ideal self in mind.    The reason it gets a bad rap in the first place is because of the former vs. the latter.

 

Say, you want to get your health back on track.    You might deny yourself junk food in favor of healthier eating.  Managing your compulsions to fulfill desire would then serve a more practical purpose.

 

In the case of the 'System' whatever a person thinks that is, it's obviously something to be avoided, perhaps even taboo in relation to a personal idea seat.

 

There was actually a thread on 600 Club about this very thing. It may satisfy a personal need to get pissed off at the Rain or vent about a Typhoon but that alone doesn't disconnect you from the system you think it represents.  Call it a control meme, or 'Nature' with it's planning (Science replaced God with Nature's Laws), it doesn't really matter.

 

 There are some things you can do something about and some you believe are beyond your control.

 

Sinister deeds may involve getting around the system to satisfy a need/want without paying homage to the system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

LeDeluge
LeDeluge Nov 27 '13
I don't view the world as necessarily broken. That may well be the difference in dealing with idealists. I do find value in asceticism and even sinister deeds. I just find it quite easy to "get around" the system without paying an ounce of homage. 
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Nov 27 '13

Even some of these if/then scenarios are a series of choices.

 

IF, I want to own a home.

THEN, I must pay Property Tax.

^

I don't bitch about the Property Tax I pay (as Darryl Asserts), I bitch about the way we are taxed, which is often a double-tax.  Due to this, there are other choices to be made to serve needs/desires.  In some cases you choose from choices available and in others you make your own choices.

 

 

LeDeluge
LeDeluge Nov 27 '13
Exactly. To me, it is more about how the tax code works. You get layers of taxation with benefits thrown out to moneyed interests in the name of economic development etc. 
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Nov 27 '13

Right.

 

Politically speaking, the Democrats would take Darryl's statements (not paying his medical bills) and use it as a 'proof' to show a need for Health Care Reform and the Tax code that goes along with it. 

 

People can govern themselves and yet they prefer to cater to compulsion.  (See also: Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, as a model).

 

The 'Emergency Room' represents a form of immediate gratification.  Even if it means sitting in a room for 4+ hours to be seen and a hefty bill at the end (that many refuse to pay).

 

A lot of these Medic in a box stops would serve the need but the mental pathways see 'Emergency Room', when someone wants immediate service.  It's easier to skip on a bill at the Emergency Room than it is at say, Patient First or something similar.  Ignoring the debt, doesn't mean it's not still anchored to your namesake.  In the mean time, these facilities will recoup the loss from other patients, and other means.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

LeDeluge
LeDeluge Nov 27 '13
I think they may hold that as an ideal. In reality, a lot of us will end up paying more for health care (in the form of insurance) under PPACA. The free rider issue will not dissipate. While I am supportive of some social programs, I just don't see this one as workable or fair to the people in the middle of the economic chain. My idea of tax reform would be significantly different than what I see being proffered and enacted. I think changes to the estate tax are about the only one they got "right".
The Forum post is edited by LeDeluge Nov 27 '13
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Nov 27 '13

Let me ask you this, do you think taxes are necessary in order for any given state to function properly?

LeDeluge
LeDeluge Nov 27 '13
Well, good question. I think it would be difficult to govern without some form of taxation. The United States originally was "funded" by tariffs. You'd have to have an incredibly minimalist state to operate solely on them now. If there is to be a state, I believe taxes are the most probable way of maintaining it.
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Nov 27 '13

An individual person can survive minimally but a State of people can not.  Crazy eh?

 

Governing systems could operate using minimal funding, the thing is the excess typically compensates for the man-power to run them (Salaries) as well as the excesses of spending.  The budget racket is a good example of this.

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