Euthanasia for Children | Forum

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SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Dec 7 '13

@Numen,

 

I think acceptance has a lot to do with that.  In Loving vs. being In Love, the 'family' is familiar enough with a person's ideals and may be more willing to accept their reasoning for choosing Euthanasia.  Those that treat the person like an ideal are less inclined to accept it, thus impose their own ideals upon them.

 

In the clip I shared of the man from Belgium who felt resentful towards his Mother's choice, he said (paraphrased) "I wasn't a son when she made this choice, I was a son to pick up the pieces afterwards."  According to the bit, his mother suffered from severe depression.  For all we know, he may have contributed to it.   If that's the case, why would she include him that decision?  Perhaps, she knew instinctively that he would not accept her reasoning.  She made up her mind and that's that.  In a lot of suicide cases, people do not inform family members as a way to strike back at them.

AnnaCzereda
AnnaCzereda Dec 7 '13
Quote from jack_macleod For me the bottom line of this conversation is that you want to force your choices, and your morality, on others whereas I want people to be free to make their own choices.  You want to lecture me on thinking for myself?  That's rich.

You still don't get it, do you? The problem with euthanasia is that in many cases it is not the patient who makes the decision, but his family together with the doctors and they all have their own agendas. It's pretty convenient to everybody involved if the general public swallows that crap about the "free choice".


And I'm not lecturing you. I often read your posts and you have never ever managed to surprise me. You're as predictable as a nostalgic Chinese reciting his Little Red Book. It's pretty obvious you're simply parroting the morbid stuff you read somewhere on the net. And it is not even a natural parrot, but a stuffed one on rechargeable batteries. Push the button and it's the same shit repeated ad nauseam. 

XiaoGui17
XiaoGui17 Dec 7 '13
Quote from numen Sometimes caring for your family means nursing them back to health.  Sometimes it means easing their suffering by letting them die.

^^This about sums up my thoughts on the matter.


Quote from AnnaCzereda The problem with euthanasia is that in many cases it is not the patient who makes the decision, but his family together with the doctors and they all have their own agendas.

There's a very simple solution to this.  If euthanasia is legalized, make it mandatory that every adult develop a living will that specifies under what circumstances to keep trying and under what circumstances to pull the plug, before they end up in that situation.  That way, there's no ambiguity.  The vultures can't try to off grandma against her wishes to accelerate receipt of the inheritance, the lazy son-in-law can't have his mother-in-law killed because he's sick of changing adult diapers, or the doctor who wants to bag the body who lacks insurance coverage can't cut a corner in the budget by terminating someone's great aunt.  It will say very clearly under what circumstances not to resuscitate, or give a lethal dose of morphine, or to keep trying with the paddles.


Here's a question that I think you should consider.  If you're outraged that a family may choose death for a patient that would have wanted life, are you similarly outraged about a family or government that chooses life for a patient that would have wanted death?  If not, why not?

The Forum post is edited by XiaoGui17 Dec 7 '13
AnnaCzereda
AnnaCzereda Dec 7 '13
Quote from XiaoGui17 There's a very simple solution to this.  If euthanasia is legalized, make it mandatory that every adult develop a living will that specifies under what circumstances to keep trying and under what circumstances to pull the plug, before they end up in that situation.  

Not a bad solution really, though it is not always possible to predict everything that can happen to you and your views can change. However, it is still better than nothing, it would give people time to think about the problem so that they could consciously make the decision.



Quote from XiaoGui17  If you're outraged that a family may choose death for a patient that would have wanted life, are you similarly outraged about a family or government that chooses life for a patient that would have wanted death? 

It's not that I'm outraged. It just smells fishy to me. If the patient is conscious and wants to die, I don't really have a problem with that. It is when others are to make this decision for him that I see some potential dangers. 


As for keeping someone alive against his wishes, it depends. I wouldn't grant euthanasia to people suffering from depression or other mental illnesses. It's the nature of these illnesses that the patients are suicidal. On the other hand, I wouldn't force people to live and undergo medical treatment, if they don't want to. 


What bothers me the most is the so-called burdensome medical treatment, the futile treatment that doesn't help the patients, doesn't even alleviate their pain, but on the contrary perpetuates their suffering, for example, keeping alive people in the persistent vegetative state for many years or forcing painful treatment on people who are close to death. Terminating such treatment is not euthanasia really, just letting the person die in peace.

The Forum post is edited by AnnaCzereda Dec 7 '13
AnnaCzereda
AnnaCzereda Dec 9 '13
Quote from numen What if the mental problem is incurable?  What value does their life have then?  I think it's easier and more justifiable to let conscious people do what they want to do with their own life.

Even if it is incurable, it doesn't mean such person's life has no value. Many psychic illnesses cannot be cured but the symptoms can be relieved by meds and psychotherapy. Even contact with other people or engaging in some entertaining activity can help to soothe the suffering. Actually I know some people who, despite suffering from depression or schizophrenia, can lead quite normal lives.


The other problem is that such patients can be conscious of their actions during the remission. However, during the relapse of an illness, their ability to make decisions is usually impaired.

The Forum post is edited by AnnaCzereda Dec 9 '13
MasterFaster
MasterFaster Dec 17 '13
This does make me wonder whether or not the parent's choice should be considered at all. From one side you could have the child wanting to "end the suffering oooh" and the parents saying "no No NO!" Then on the other hand you could have a 4yr old future Rain Man being told by his parents "It's time to go so tell the doctor man you want to sleep... FOREVER mwuhuhahaha"


I know there are–from what I hear–stringent psychological examinations, but that is what sprung into my mind.


In my opinion they should just be taken out in their sleep and recorded as natural passings so less people face the stress of choosing. That is of course only if the government wants to take our lives into their hands... if not, just make suicide more acceptable so no one bears guilt.


If the vibe was suicide, then you would push the button,

But if you're bowing down then let me do the cutting.

MasterFaster
MasterFaster Dec 17 '13

EXCUSE THE DOUBLE POST


In summary and just to try and clarify, either the government takes control or not/you give them control or don't, whichever you feel better about.


The thing is, we're just animals, if one of us dies tomorrow because a doctor decides, or your parents decide they should give you the almond juice... well then you're gone. Gone. World keeps turning, a few people give a shit. Same as any life or death situation. What if your brother Noah decides to blow you, your sister, and mother to smithereens then knock his own head off with lead?

Who will that truly impact a week, a month, a year, a century later?

None of us know. A majority of us can't see five minutes in the past to find out where we put our keys, let alone see and fix the future.


Chaos theory isn't about putting all the butterflies in jars. Because if you stop them flapping their wings, then that will have an effect. Possibly a jar shortage where fans of Marmite and Marmalade fight to the death for the last jar to fill with their ambrosia.


(piss poor summary so far)


Basically, things are going to happen because of other things and stuff. It's all beyond control; magnificent chaos oh I adore. There are always a billion factors, and the more boundaries in place, the more factors. I love watching humans trying to harness chaos and only every multiplying it.

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