John 8:44 | Forum

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Interrogist
Interrogist Dec 15 '13

John 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Heliodramus
Heliodramus Dec 15 '13
Heliodramus
Heliodramus Dec 15 '13
Your Predicted death ...
CanisMachina
CanisMachina Dec 16 '13
I'm confused, is he going to be asphyxiated by that flag or are you going to go Derek Vinyard on him? I really don't care, but your threats need some work.
The Forum post is edited by CanisMachina Dec 16 '13
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Dec 16 '13
Quote from Interrogist

John 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I've always considered this a direct address to knowledge in Man.  The devil in man in Genesis is the corruption of man through knowledge.  Not that the devil or Satan was actually present but the Serpent (Gnosis) in the tree is symbolic of that corruption.   When man has knowledge he can use it to bring him closer or further away from the Kingdom of God (esoteric).  When Hell was a place people actually feared, Lies were the path to to it (annihilation).  Still, pretty low on the Commandments list, 9th to be exact.


Exodus is still under much dispute, not just the dating but the actual commandments themselves.  In essence, you have a handful of writers with obvious influences trying to lead the people back to the Kingdom of God, to man's purity before the corruption and attachment to the exoteric.


What I've been able to ascertain from reading the cuneiform tablets from Sumer, is that voice played a pinnacle role in symbiosis with the Divine. It's among the reasons that poetic sonnets were used in conjunction with warnings about using voice carefully or else anger the gods and bring their wrath.  Seems to me, it was a way to get the people to cooperate, work the gardens and manage behavior.  Still, in Lipit-Ishtar, lying isn't addressed directly, more indirectly with a series of dictates on managing slaves, property, etc.  More of an honor code.


The Babylonians seem more Barbarian to me than the Sumerians were.  The Code of Hammurabi has a number of harsher punishments and addresses bearing false witness. Hammurabi ensured that citizens had the right of Retaliation, to pursue vengeance against those that lied and sought to do them harm (Lex Talionis).
Lies/Truth are a dichotomy of knowledge, in either case, everybody lies and whether or not it annihilates you just depends on what you're using the lies for.   The habitual liar for example, tends to lose credibility, friends and any real sense of truth.  Everything is a lie to a point where they become pretty transparent.  A decent liar can fool you, whereas a horrible one is trying to hide a truth.  
I've always liked Mark Twain's On the Decay of the Art of Lying
I do so appreciate a beautiful liar.

  

AnnaCzereda
AnnaCzereda Dec 16 '13
Nah Darryl, if the Devil were a good liar you wouldn't know he's a liar.
Davidson
Davidson Dec 17 '13

Quote from SIN_JONES
Quote from Interrogist

John 8:44

Ye
are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of
his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


I've always considered this a direct address to knowledge in Man.  The devil in man in Genesis is the corruption of man through knowledge.  Not that the devil or Satan was actually present but the Serpent (Gnosis) in the tree is symbolic of that corruption.   When man has knowledge he can use it to bring him closer or further away from the Kingdom of God (esoteric).  When Hell was a place people actually feared, Lies were the path to to it (annihilation).  Still, pretty low on the Commandments list, 9th to be exact.



Exodus is still under much dispute, not just the dating but the actual commandments themselves.  In essence, you have a handful of writers with obvious influences trying to lead the people back to the Kingdom of God, to man's purity before the corruption and attachment to the exoteric.



What I've been able to ascertain from reading the cuneiform tablets from Sumer, is that voice played a pinnacle role in symbiosis with the Divine. It's among the reasons that poetic sonnets were used in conjunction with warnings about using voice carefully or else anger the gods and bring their wrath.  Seems to me, it was a way to get the people to cooperate, work the gardens and manage behavior.  Still, in Lipit-Ishtar, lying isn't addressed directly, more indirectly with a series of dictates on managing slaves, property, etc.  More of an honor code.



The Babylonians seem more Barbarian to me than the Sumerians were.  The Code of Hammurabi has a number of harsher punishments and addresses bearing false witness. Hammurabi ensured that citizens had the right of Retaliation, to pursue vengeance against those that lied and sought to do them harm (Lex Talionis).

Lies/Truth are a dichotomy of knowledge, in either case, everybody lies and whether or not it annihilates you just depends on what you're using the lies for.   The habitual liar for example, tends to lose credibility, friends and any real sense of truth.  Everything is a lie to a point where they become pretty transparent.  A decent liar can fool you, whereas a horrible one is trying to hide a truth.  

I've always liked Mark Twain's On the Decay of the Art of Lying

I do so appreciate a beautiful liar.



  




The serpent was actually a sign of deception... the gnosis is actually found in something like you and many others seem to forget. The torah was one half of something, the analogy and story version of it. It was not to be taken literally. The literal and gnosis was found in kaballah, the otherside of hebrew spirituality and mysticism.

 

Funny that the gospel of John is brought up though. In this gospel it actually deals with other concepts like

1. Christ destroying the doctrine of sola scriptora

2. The meaning of 666.

SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Dec 17 '13
Seeing that Genesis is actually an adaptation of the Mesopotamian version of the story of Adapa, I can see where you're drawing the conclusion that the serpent is deception however how was deception carried out?  Through knowledge.  I can spoon feed you information what you do with that information is reliant on your ability to analyze it, process it and then act upon it.  


So while you're telling me what I've forgotten, perhaps you might address the concept of the serpent as deception.

Davidson
Davidson Dec 17 '13

quick question. Ever heard of documentary hypothesis?

SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Dec 17 '13
Relevance?


A cursory search provided a statement used loosely in the academic community to address the 'document' origins of the Torah.  It seems to be under some rather harsh scrutiny because the context of Hypothesis is lost without knowing the coiner's intent.


I'm guessing you're asking because you seem to be under the impression I'm hypothesizing the Torah's origins?


I'm merely stating that I've personally examined the Gigamesh Epic in all of its forms, and the story of Adapa is nearly a mirror image of content in Genesis which starts in the cradle of civilization.  I don't negate the oral traditions, I just don't see the point in quibbling over it when I'm addressing what knowledge does to man.  As they say, ignorance is bliss!

The Forum post is edited by SIN_JONES Dec 17 '13
Davidson
Davidson Dec 19 '13

no I wasn't asking if you were hypothosising. I was asking if you had heard of said hypothesis.

 

I actually subscribe to this hypothesis. I can PM you something a friend of mine did to break it down if you like.

 

But that's just an approach to the torah that I obviously give credit to or I think should be looked into when observing the torah.

 

Think we should take this to PM or another topic? Considering we are now discussing a different topic than a verse from the gospel of john

SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Dec 19 '13

Sure, pm me.  In the meantime, see: Link


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