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Hallow
Hallow Aug 21

Here’s my attempt at continuing this from another thread. Do what you will (or not) with it.

 

From what I recall, when Harley Quinn was originally introduced during the animated series, she was meant for one episode only. After she became a hit, Harley’s origin became known as the Joker’s psychiatrist that took a different turn for the worst. The madness (no pun intended) ensues from there.

 

The recent movie Suicide Squad romanticizes their relationship so badly it’s pathetic, but I do have a confession--I still love that outfit she wears in the movie. I play dress up in it all the time. After the movie came out in theatres everyone proclaimed they wanted what Joker and Harley had. No, you don’t. Harley Quinn is mentally unstable and the Joker is a psychotic mass murderer who has tried to kill her on countless occasions and at one point eventually succeeds. & Yes, she disappears for a year because she was pregnant. Joker was aware, but played oblivious.

 

One thing about her character that still gets to me the most is when the Joker nearly scars her face for his own advantage. He says, “You were always my perfect little monster, Harley.” “You are my creation, and if you want to serve me, I need you to be perfect.” Her response?

 

“Would you still find me beautiful?”

 

I still always think, “Why, why, why?” Only because, yes, it’s something that I would have said at one point in time.

 

and no one wants to admire that. 


     

SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Aug 21
This may help.  Trying to scar her face pales in comparison to other things.  You do know she conceived the child through rape right?  She hid the pregnancy because deep down, she knew he'd probably kill it.
dimitri
dimitri Aug 21
With Harley Quinn did DC introduce an interesting character.
Multi-faceted and especially not one dimensional. She brought in a certain aesthetic rarely seen in (Western) comics. She's unique. That's a fact.

Now, since her introduction she has been radically changed after reaching spotlight. She used to be more comic-relief in an already stark and dark comic-series. Due to her popularity, writers are making stories and taking away her "shine" that gave the appeal. Making her more grittier than needed.

No use in discussing this character as she is merely a figment of imagination. The COS-play can be attractive (depending who is doing it..) but nothing more to it. Where it concerns me, the character is being milked to death and already lost much of her initial appeal.

A bit like Captain America recently..
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Aug 21
I agree.  Played out.  Every costumed affair has a dozen or more in both cosplay outfits.


There could be use in the character's draw, even if it is imaginary.  Satan? Cthulhu?  Any number of them, are archetypal structures.  The dimensions are only limited to the creator's mind.  We didn't make her, so I wonder why women flock to her, can't be just the outfit right?

Dan_Dread
Dan_Dread Aug 21
The only reason anyone gave a crap about the Harley quin character from that terrible atrocity of a movie(see will Smith playing will Smith as...Deadshot? Um ok) is her little shorts. The original character from the cartoon was completely one dimensional(ohh Mr j...) and the movie portrayal didn't even capture that properly. Scantilly clad version of the joker with Stockholm syndrome. From a Saturday morning cartoon. We already had supergirl, batwoman, spider girl, etc etc. Of course 'jokergirl' was inevitable. A tired trope.


Really compelling stuff.

The Forum post is edited by Dan_Dread Aug 21
Entropic
Entropic Aug 21
I used to work with this chick who had her name legally changed to Harley Quinn.  Imagine wanting validation so badly that not only do you try to embody a character that has no redeeming qualities, but also fail at doing even it.
XiaoGui17
XiaoGui17 Aug 22


Quote from Dan_DreadThe original character from the cartoon was completely one dimensional(ohh Mr j...) and the movie portrayal didn't even capture that properly. Scantilly clad version of the joker with Stockholm syndrome. From a Saturday morning cartoon. We already had supergirl, batwoman, spider girl, etc etc. Of course 'jokergirl' was inevitable.

Aesthetically she's a female variation of the Joker. But in personality? 


In the animated series, I think she serves to remind the audience, somewhat, that the Joker is not intended to be admirable. He was so charismatic that mass murder wasn't enough to turn people away from him.  Too theoretical and abstract. Having him nearly kill someone who adored the crap out of him -- who he personally manipulated into the hopelessly devoted mess she is -- really gave the Joker a more personal dimension of evil. In a way, she serves to delve deeper into who he is. 


 Stockholm Syndrome is an odd characterization. She's a fairly realistic depiction of the cycle of abuse. Which was dark for the animated series, which was essentially a kids' show. I think part of Harley's popularity is similar to the popularity of Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame. It's nowhere near as deep or as dark as it could be (in the case of the latter, compare the book), but it got a fuckton of attention from the little kids raised on the typical fare Disney and Saturday morning cartoons were cranking out. It left a lasting impression. 

SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Aug 22
I still haven't seen Suicide Squad, I'm just not interested.  The previews looked meh, and the cosplay hysteria had already set in before the film's release.

I thought the animated series' purpose was to ensure that people didn't forget how psychotic the Joker really is.  He doesn't have any super powers, he's Batman's most formidable foe, and is merely a man.  Quinn is a throw-away character, much like the way Joker treats her.

From the women I've spoken to around here, they seem to admire her as a female badass but then later feel offended because she's just another one of Joker's Hoes.  A play thing with no real value.
Hallow
Hallow Aug 22

Quote from SIN_JONESYou do know she conceived the child through rape right?  She hid the pregnancy because deep down, she knew he'd probably kill it.

Well duh. He ain’t no father of the year. Nothing about their ‘relationship’ was romantic. 

SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Aug 23
Ok, you're aware.  You still haven't said what qualities you admire about her.

FemaleSatan
FemaleSatan Aug 23
I had someone give me a compelling reason for liking Harley once. A customer told me she admired her because she overcame the abuse in later comics, found love but still owned who she used to be and what she did for that abusive boyfriend. She does have her own comics and stories without the Joker. Becomes a psychiatrist again, joins a roller derby team, loves Poison Ivy. 


I just think she's boring as an antihero. As a villain, I enjoy that she's clearly smarter than the Joker but still defers to him, in her episode (Mad Love) she figures out how to make a plan the Joker has but can't figure out how to make work, work. In Gotham City Sirens the female villains minus their male counterparts take over Gotham in less than 24 hours. Batman is eliminated in less than a panel, it's lovely. 


However, I think Hallow likes her just for the costume. Sad but whatever, a cool costume can get a fictional character far. 

Hallow
Hallow Aug 23

You guys are funny. I like the character because I like the character. What gives? I’m kidding’, I know it’s all about discussion. Yes, you both know I already put extra time into her cosplay. I share my progress on facebook/instagram. It’s no secret as with everything else. I’m also in the progress of classic Harley. Yes, her costumes are fun, it takes my mind off a lot of shit I gotta deal with, but it’s not the entire reason. C’mon now.

 

She may play stupid but as there’s a sense of empowerment. She goes after what she wants. I read somewhere, and this is where I personally relate to the character the most... on how her home life was so chaotic so she pushed herself to get into college and pursue psychology to “help create order in the lives of people who are quite chaotic themselves”. After over five years of being a college dropout, I made the decision to go back to school for a similar purpose. I want to get into criminal psychology. I started this summer. I hate knowing how much money it’s going to be, but that’s my own personal goal.


Then there’s her conflicting personality traits. That’s the most intriguing for me about her character. “I loved flushing away the control. The goals. The regiment way of life I’d had. I was finally free. Free to forget. To play for fun. To play crazy”. Which is when she throws everything away she had accomplished.

 

Continuing, “The downside of this is that I’ve started to feel numb. In school, they had a name for it: dissociation. My rational mind can recognize pain when I see it. But my rational mind is in a pretty small box”.

 

And certainly nothing to be proud of but one of the few that I can understan for myself. A long with dissociation, there is histrionic personality disorder and stockholm syndrome. It explains a lot.

 

But more importantly, empowerment and a passion for life.

XiaoGui17
XiaoGui17 Aug 23

Quote from SIN_JONES I still haven't seen Suicide Squad, I'm just not interested.  The previews looked meh, and the cosplay hysteria had already set in before the film's release.

You ain't missing much. They were all dressed up with nowhere to go. It's like they spent so much on character background they forgot to put in a plot and slapped some shit together at the last minute. 


Quote from Hallow

 I read somewhere, and this is where I personally relate to the character the most... on how her home life was so chaotic so she pushed herself to get into college and pursue psychology to “help create order in the lives of people who are quite chaotic themselves”.


That's literally every shrink I've ever known. Never met a sane one. 
Quote from Hallow


She may play stupid but as there’s a sense of empowerment. She goes after what she wants. . . 

But more importantly, empowerment and a passion for life.


She may have talent,  but I would hardly consider someone who answers to another person's whims "empowered."
SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Aug 23
Yeah, she has a nice little fling with Poison Ivy but ends up going right back to the Joker and he kills her.  So I don't know that I'd find that admirable, she was just fooling herself.  I think when telling a story, you understand the motivations of having the character in the first place when you see its end.  She was a throwaway piece of shit.  The end.  If you find that admirable, gross.
Hallow
Hallow Aug 23

Oh yeah, as if we (and I use that term loosely) aren’t thrownaway pieces of shit. In the end, everybody is trash, myself included, some think they are more special than others. 


Moving along, he was destroying the universe and wanted to create a new one as he sought fit; he thought that any universe would allow someone like him to be created must be fundamentally broken. 


Yes, Harley begged for him to spare her, and you would think that after all she did for him he would, but again, this is the Joker.


It could have been worse as his other attempts for killing her out of confusion regarding how he felt towards her. He could have continually tortured her over and over like Batman, or worse, but he made sure to give his plaything the best seat in the house for the armageddon.


If you don’t find that scene mildly 'heartwarming', even for what it is, then that’s on you. 

SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Aug 24
Only he did torture her, and let her dangle there on his table to see all the bodies of the previous Qunns to set in.  He wanted to make sure she fully understood that she was nothing more than a tool for him to use at his leisure. 

The mind games were part of that, which is why in spite of it all she's willing to feel endeared to him.
Hallow
Hallow Aug 24

Dontcha’ mean Quinn’s*? (; Yes, you mentioned that earlier and I was aware of that before this thread. You know how he killed bats then brought him back to life only to kill him again?? He could have done that with Harley, but torture rape her hard enough only this time it killed her and repeat. That to me would have been more sadistic. Instead he did actually spare her by simply turning her into a constellation.


And you know, speaking of all those other dead Quinn's, there's actually a theory out there regarding. That they are dolls, only for show. But of course, to give off that exact impression.

SIN_JONES
SIN_JONES Aug 25
Ummm no, Quinns is plural.  In that every body on that floor was in deed a Quinn.  Same clothing, same aesthetic.  All used up.  They are not dolls but you can believe that theory if it suits your use.
XiaoGui17
XiaoGui17 Aug 25
Quinns = More than one Quinn


Quinn's = Belonging to Quinn


There is never a situation where attempting to pluralize with an apostrophe is not retarded. 

Hallow
Hallow Aug 25

I was teasing because I know it's a major pet peeve. Hence the wink. I was pointing out how quinns was mistyped (and I would say typo, because like it’s/its it’s a easy mistake) not whether or not it’s plural. 


Yes, the only purpose for her existence is being all used up and then tossed away like pieces of trash like all the other quinns were. 


Does that change my mind about the character? No. While I do not fully endorse her and the Joker, she wouldn't exist if it weren't for him. However, I can agree to disagree. 

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